The Right Time to Shoot

Hennepin County is in the midst of investigating —in which a Golden Valley police officer shot and killed a woman who reportedly got out of her vehicle with a handgun. Such shootings are rare—Hopkins hasn’t had an officer-involved shooting in about 50 years—but they also create questions among the public.

Patch sat down with Hopkins Police Sgt. Michael Glassberg to discuss when officers draw their guns and when they pull the trigger, how they train and what a typical police gunfight looks like. The conversation offers an in-depth look at Hopkins’ policies on firearms and deadly force.

(Glassberg, as a Hopkins officer, is not in a position to comment on any specifics of the Golden Valley shooting.)

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Hopkins Patch: First of all, why do officers carry handguns and how do handguns differ from nonlethal equipment?

Sgt. Michael Glassberg: Handguns are for stopping great bodily harm and lethal confrontations that officers may be exposed to. We are charged with responding to very violent situations—some of which, unfortunately, force us to use deadly force.

Hopkins Patch: And how are they different from a Taser or something.

Glassberg: A Taser is strictly used for nonlethal force. At times, we will attempt to use a Taser first in lethal situations as long as we have lethal cover, like a handgun or rifle. But the Taser has no place in a situation where an officer is being faced with potential lethal force against us or against a civilian. The Taser has a tendency to potentially fail if you don’t get a good hit due to clothing or other factors.

Hopkins Patch: What kind of training do y’all undergo on how to use your handguns?

Glassberg: Our firearms training is consistent with state-required mandates. As a department, we shoot our firearms at least four times a year. And these are not just stand-and-shoots. A lot of it is moving and shooting, going to cover, reloading, judgment shooting.

We do a lot of judgment shooting using video systems. We also use simunition (non-lethal training ammunition), where we’re actually doing live scenarios with role players. We’ll shoot some of the role players with simunitions similar to [paintball].

What we’ve found over the years is very few police shootings are point and shoot. A lot of times it’s moving, and we want our officers to be accurate for moving and shooting because most gunfights are going to be some type of movement. Rarely does a suspect stand still during a firefight.

This training is over and above what each officer has to do when they go to what we call “skills”—the police academy. They go through basically a semester of firearms where they get familiarized with deadly force laws and the use of the handgun, maintenance of the handgun. We continue that. Each year, we review the deadly force statutes, state use-of-force statutes. We talk about maintenance. And we always are changing up our shooting scenarios so it’s always different because in real life, you’re presented with various different situations.

Hopkins Patch: What types of situations will prompt an officer to draw his weapon—maybe not fire, but draw his weapon?

Glassberg: Any time there’s a potential for lethal force or great bodily harm used on an officer. Commonly, people will see officers on the scene of a burglary alarm. Well, it may not be a real burglary, but our weapon is out because we want to have it out and ready in the event there is a burglar inside. We know that burglars like to carry weapons. Any type of in-progress felonies where it’s like a person crime. Any time where we have any inkling there may be a weapon involved. Any time there’s going to be any type of weapon involved, we’re going to escalate to deadly force, the majority of the time.

Hopkins Patch: Tell me what that means. If you see someone with a weapon?

Glassberg: If we go to an assault where there’s a report of a knife involved, a bat involved, or maybe this person’s got a bottle. We’re going to have our weapon out on those type of situations.

Hopkins Patch: What would prompt an officer to cross the line from having the weapon out and actually pulling the trigger?

Glassberg: When they are directly threatened with lethal force or great bodily harm or to protect another from great bodily harm or lethal force or basically to apprehend a suspect who I reasonably believe is going to (cause lethal force or great bodily harm to someone else).

To put it in layman’s terms, let’s say I see a suspect running toward a daycare center with a gun in his hand. Even though I may have to shoot him in the back, it’s completely justified because what’s the alternative? He runs into the daycare center with a gun. That’s the easiest scenario for people to understand. Or if I know that this guy’s just shot an officer. Even though he’s running away from me, I already know he’s shot one officer—he’s shot one person—I can use deadly force on him even though I’m not directly threatened at that point.

Hopkins Patch: Does the presence of a handgun constitute a risk of great bodily harm? If I have one in my hand and you’re trying to arrest me—

Glassberg: Absolutely. Oh yes, absolutely. Without a doubt. If someone’s got a handgun in their hand, they are going to be taken down by officers with their weapons out. I’m not saying they’re going to shoot them—depending on if the officer has cover. But the officer will have their weapon out, and that weapon will be pointed at the person with the handgun. That is pretty much black and white. Even if it’s a knife or a handgun, you can expect the officers to respond with the weapon pointed at that person and prepared to fire if need be.

Hopkins Patch: What’s the thinking behind doing that? If someone has a handgun, why not try to coax it out of them by voice?

Glassberg: Obviously because there’s too much risk. Reaction is always slower than action, and the person with the handgun knows in their mind what they’re going to do. So again, reaction is slower than action. So if our gun’s not out, we’re already behind the eight ball—we’re already disadvantaged—because that person has the gun out. They can fire at us quicker than we can draw. Even if my weapon’s pointed at them, they’re going to get the round off.

With knives, it used to be a 21-foot rule. If someone had a knife and they were within 21 feet of you—and I’ve seen this done in studies with a rubber knife—that person can run at you and get one slice or stab on you before you can draw your weapon and fire accurately. That’s now been increased closer to 30 feet to make it safer for the officers.

Hopkins Patch: Why not shoot the gun out of their hand or shoot them in the kneecap?

Glassberg: That looks real good in the movies, but what we know from studies is police accuracy in gunfights is below 30 percent because of the stress and the adrenaline. That’s why we try to really put some adrenaline and stress on our officers during our firearms training—by running around and getting that adrenaline going—because you see the accuracy just start to drop because you’re shaking a little bit. It’s hard enough to hit center mass (a person’s body) during a police gunfight—let alone an arm or hand. And the problem is, if you miss, where does that round go? Is it going to hit the innocent bystander?

We’re trained to shoot for center mass for two reasons. First of all, it’s the largest area of the body and also that’s the best area to incapacitate someone who is a threat to you.

And you don’t want to, in a firefight, try to shoot for an arm or a hand or a leg. That’s not going to incapacitate them. We’ve seen studies, I’ve seen videos, of people that’ve been shot multiple times—and what should be deadly shots—and they’re still continuing to fight with the officers or they’re still continuing to shoot back at the officers. It’s not like the movies where we see one shot and people fall and die. That’s not reality.

Hopkins Patch: How does this policy compare to others across the state and the country?

Glassberg: Center mass is pretty much standard nationwide. I don’t know of any agency that would be training their officers to shoot for extremities. In advanced SWAT training for snipers, they do practice for headshots but that would be the extent of it.

Hopkins Patch: And of course, that’s a rifle not a handgun.

Glassberg: That’s a rifle not a handgun. Your accuracy, obviously, is tremendously better with a rifle. If I have a handgun and my only shot is a headshot—because the person may be blocked or they have a hostage—and I’m forced into a situation, then, yes, we will (take a headshot). We do practice headshots. However, our preferred target zone is center mass.

Hopkins Patch: How long will a typical gunfight take place?

Glassberg: They are less than three seconds. The average police gunfight is less than three seconds, and I think the majority of them are 13 feet or less.

Hopkins Patch: What does that mean for an officer?

Glassberg: Usually when you have a deadly force encounter it is so fast that you don’t have a long time to make that decision. You have to recognize the threat, draw your weapon, get a sight picture and fire. So basically, I walk into a room and all of a sudden someone pulls a weapon on me—and again, it’s that “action is quicker than reaction,” so they’re already going to have the advantage. That’s why we practice so much from the holster. We draw and fire. That’s a major part of our training because the majority of shootings you’re going to be drawing from the holster and finding your target and firing those shots.

Hopkins Patch: How is a gunfight different from hunting or something like that?

Glassberg: The main thing is the animals—you’re not being shot back at or they’re not a threat to you directly. Obviously , there are certain situations where a person is confronted by, like, a grizzly bear. But the majority of it, hunters have the time. They’re out there with their scopes. They’re in a somewhat controlled environment—you know, they’re up in a tree. They can track the animal. They can choose when they have to take the shot. The officers aren’t going to have a choice because it’s a lethal threat and, if they want to defend their life or someone else, it’s happening now.

Hopkins Patch: What happens in an officer’s mind after the incident happens?

Glassberg: Well first of all, it has to go without saying that this is a tremendously stressful incident, obviously, for the officer, the department and the community. The officer generally is immediately removed from duty. They provide an official statement at some point during the first 24 to 48 hours. They are provided with legal counsel and are provided with critical incident stress management techniques. They may meet with a critical incident stress management debriefing team. Prior to returning for duty, depending on the department, they might meet with a specially trained psychologist. But they are afforded all the time that they need to recover from being involved in this traumatic incident.

We know that a lot of officers that are involved in deadly force encounters get out of law enforcement as a career because of the stress. And a lot of times, it may not be on them, but it may be their family. It was so stressful on their family that they don’t want to go through with that. We try to prepare for that mentally. However, I don’t think that’s something you can prepare for without having some type of residual scarring. A lot of officers recover just fine from it, but there is a group of officers—and rightfully so—have a hard time recovering from it and move on to a different career.

Hopkins Patch: How many officers will end up using their weapon?

Glassberg: A very, very small amount. I don’t have the exact percentage, but the majority of officers—and obviously it depends on where you work, too—will generally go through their career without ever having to fire a weapon. It seems like we’re noticing an increase in the number of officer-involved shootings. Right now, I don’t know why that is. It just seems like nationwide we’re seeing a lot more violence toward police.  

Hopkins Patch: Do you know when the last time Hopkins (had an officer-involved shooting)?

Glassberg: Hopkins’ last officer-involved shooting was in the 1960s, and I believe it involved a burglary. I like to think a lot of it is based on our training and our tactics. We try to defuse situations when we can. However, I think a lot of that is pure luck.

Hopkins Patch: Why are officers removed, temporarily, immediately after? Is that punitive?

Glassberg: No, not at all. That is for two reasons. The main reason is they’ve just been through a traumatically stressful incident. You don’t want to keep exposing them while they’re trying to mentally heal or physically heal from what they’ve been through. The other thing is because they’re part of an investigation. They need to provide statements, and they also need to get home to their family so their family knows they’re OK.

Hopkins Patch: Who typically does the investigations?

Glassberg: In Hennepin County, for officer-involved shootings, the majority of the time it’s going to be the Sheriff’s Office. Statewide, out of Hennepin County, it’s generally the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. Both of these agencies have specific units that are assigned to investigate officer-involved shootings.

The investigators are very, very well briefed in handling these situations and work well with the departments and the County Attorney’s Office—because eventually all the reports go before the county attorney for review to decide if there’s going to be charges in this case.

In a lot of cases, depending on the county, it may go to a grand jury for indictment. … A lot of counties though, just by their policies or procedures, they put it before a grand jury where the officer and witnesses testify in front of a grand jury and the jury returns a “no bill” (a finding of insufficient evidence for indictment) saying justifiable homicide.

Hopkins Patch: And, of course, that would be a panel of citizens looking at the evidence.

Glassberg: Looking at the evidence, photos, statements, experts come in and testify—that type of stuff.